The Day of Atonement

Haskell may have believed this. But he was not a prophet. His interpretation was just as private as is yours, John Thiel’s or mine or my church’s.

I am aware of SDARM’s use of Isaiah 22 in the context this topic - and hence why I included it in my article as a challenge to our interpretation of it. I don’t believe our use of Isaiah 22 is correct.

You’ve quoted the first sentence of a paragraph from Letter 48, 1902 (Medical Ministry pp. 278-280). It was written to a minister who was eating meat and publicly opposing health reform. A few paragraphs later, in the same letter, Ellen White writes: “While we do not make the use of flesh-meat a test, while we do not want to force anyone to give up its use, yet it is our duty to request that no minister of the conference shall make light of or oppose the message of reform on this point.”

So the “firm stand” she calls for is defined by the letter itself: a firm stand in the church’s teaching and in the example of its ministers, with the individual bearing the consequences of his own choice. It is not a membership requirement, because she says in the same letter that it isn’t one.

There is a difference between the Bible’s teaching of the unpardonable sin, and John Thiel’s teaching of the special ability he and his congregation possess to discern when someone has committed it. I believe the Bible’s teaching on this point.

It is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that is working in cooperating with the educators in our school. The Lord is blessing Brother Haskell.”

Manuscript 175, 1897, paragraph 13.

“In their great interest to draw souls to Christ, opening to them the treasures of the Word of God, they themselves catch the inspiration of His Holy Spirit.”

“Thus it has been with Elder Haskell.”

Manuscript 57, 1899, paragraph 8.

“Saith the Lord, Brother Haskell is My servant, appointed to work under My directions, which he will obey, to teach the truth for this time, and I will be with his mouth, and I will give him My Word, and he shall be your helper, to carry out My instructions.”

Letter 89, 1897, paragraph 8.

“I have provided help in my servant (Brother Haskell). I will be with his mouth, and he shall speak My Word, and it shall prosper.”

Letter 99, 1897, paragraph 8.

“Stephen Haskell has been a man whom God has pitied from his youth and loved him and has given him great light in his work.”

Letter 14b, 1898, paragraph 16.

“You are to do the work for which the Lord has been fitting you, the work of giving light in due season.”

Manuscript 199, 1898.

“The Lord has given to our school the labors of Brother and Sister Haskell, and great light has been received through their work.”

Manuscript 158, 1898, paragraph 9.

“Brother Haskell’s perceptive powers are good. He presents truth in a clear, simple, earnest manner that carries its own evidence with it to the hearts of those that hear it.”

Letter 99, 1897, paragraph 9.

If sister White wrote to a minister and told him to give up meat, it’s because she wanted all of them to do that and for it to be a test in the church. But her letter was not circulated.

Ariadne,

I don’t doubt any of those statements about Haskell. God blessed his work, and I respect him too. But being blessed by the Spirit in teaching is not the same as speaking with a prophet’s authority. Your own quote says this happens to all who labour for souls: “they themselves catch the inspiration of His Holy Spirit.” As Adventists we don’t believe in continuous inspiration, even for someone as blessed as Ellen White. So, while Haskell may have been inspired in his teaching - that does not necessarily mean he was aways correct in what he taught.

In 1910 Ellen White wrote to him by name: “I entreat of Elders Haskell, Loughborough, Smith, and others… that they make no reference to my writings to sustain their views of the daily… The true meaning of the daily is not to be made a test question” (1SM 164).

Haskell does not teach that meat eating should be made a test in the church, but even if we interpret his teachings to say that, however much light Haskell had, our reading of his teaching of Isaiah 22 can’t make meat-eating a test of fellowship when the prophet said plainly that it isn’t one.

Yes, she did want all ministers to give up flesh. I wonder if you have read Part 4 of my series? The point I make there is that this can be achieved by a church rule for staff members.

Do you believe that the three angels’ messages of Revelation 14 contained error? Who were the three angels flying in the midst of heaven? Were they not men whom God had raised up to proclaim His messages to the world?

The Adventist pioneers were the very men through who God established the foundations of present truth. They were not expressing their own opinions. They were labouring under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and God instructed that their writings should be preserved and republished for future generations.

In 1905, we were specifically warned against removing even one pin from the foundations God had established through these pioneers.

“Where shall we find safety unless it be in the truths that the Lord has been giving for the last fifty years?” — Review and Herald, May 25, 1905, par. 28.

“The three angels of Revelation 14 represent the people who accept the light of God’s messages and go forth as His agents to sound the warning throughout the length and breadth of the earth.” — Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, pp. 455–456.

“Let that which these men have written in the past be reproduced.” — Review and Herald, May 25, 1905, par. 21.

You have referred to the 1910 instruction concerning Haskell, Loughborough and others regarding the daily in Daniel 8. However, that was a caution concerning a particular controversy and the misuse of prophetic writings to settle that question. It was not a blanket rejection of the pioneers, their inspiration, or the truths God had established through their labours.

There is a significant difference between cautioning brethren over a particular disputed interpretation and rejecting the established truths that God had led His people to understand.

we can’t dismiss their teachings because they were not prophets. The Holy Spirit guided the proclamation of the three angels’ messages through human instruments.

the statement that flesh eating is not to be made a test of fellowship does not make flesh eating acceptable for new baptism candidates. in the antitypical Day of Atonement. Isaiah 22:12–14 identifies the eating of flesh in a time when God calls His people to afflict their souls as a solemn matter. The question is not merely one of church membership, but of obedience to the light given for our time.

If we accept that God established the foundations of our faith through these pioneers, we must be very careful before setting aside their teachings. Otherwise, where shall we find safety?

In the future, deception of every kind is to arise, and we want solid ground for our feet. We want solid pillars for the building. Not one pin is to be removed from that which the Lord has established. The enemy will bring in false theories, such as the doctrine that there is no sanctuary. This is one of the points on which there will be a departing from the faith. Where shall we find safety unless it be in the truths that the Lord has been giving for the last fifty years?” — Review and Herald, May 25, 1905, par. 28.

“We are to repeat the words of the pioneers in our work, who knew what it cost to search for the truth as for hidden treasure, and who labored to lay the foundation of our work. They moved forward step by step under the influence of the Spirit of God. One by one these pioneers are passing away. The word given me is, Let that which these men have written in the past be reproduced.” — Review and Herald, May 25, 1905, par. 21.

“When men come in who would move one pin or pillar from the foundation which God has established by His Holy Spirit, let the aged men who were pioneers in our work speak plainly, and let those who are dead speak also, by the reprinting of their articles in our periodicals. Gather up the rays of divine light that God has given as He has led His people on step by step in the way of truth. This truth will stand the test of time and trial.” — Manuscript 62, 1905, p. 6; Manuscript Releases, vol. 1, p. 55.

“The three angels of Revelation 14 represent the people who accept the light of God’s messages and go forth as His agents to sound the warning throughout the length and breadth of the earth.” — Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, pp. 455–456; The Three Angels’ Messages, 36.3.

“The work of preaching the gospel has not been committed to angels, but has been entrusted to men.” — The Great Controversy, p. 312; The Three Angels’ Messages, 36.4.

“The first, second, and third angels’ messages are the messages to be given to the world. We hear not literally the voice of the three angels, but these angels in Revelation represent a people who will be upon the earth and give these messages.” — Manuscript 40, 1890; The Three Angels’ Messages, 37.3.

“The angels are represented as flying in the midst of heaven, proclaiming to the world a message of warning, and having a direct bearing upon the people living in the last days of this earth’s history. No one hears the voice of these angels, for they are a symbol to represent the people of God who are working in harmony with the universe of heaven. Men and women, enlightened by the Spirit of God, and sanctified through the truth, proclaim the three messages in their order.” — Life Sketches, p. 429; Selected Messages, book 2, p. 387.

“When the power of God testifies as to what is truth, that truth is to stand forever as the truth. No aftersuppositions, contrary to the light God has given are to be entertained.” — Counsels to Writers and Editors, p. 31.2.

“God has graciously spared their lives to repeat and repeat till the close of their lives, the experience through which they passed even as did John the apostle till the very close of his life. And the standard-bearers who have fallen in death, are to speak through the reprinting of their writings.” — Counsels to Writers and Editors, p. 32.1.

“I am instructed that thus their voices are to be heard. They are to bear their testimony as to what constitutes the truth for this time.” — Counsels to Writers and Editors, p. 32.1.

“The past fifty years have not dimmed one jot or principle of our faith as we received the great and wonderful evidences that were made certain to us in 1844, after the passing of the time.” — Manuscript 129, 1905, as cited in The True Pioneer Position of the King of the North, Sabbath Sermons.

“The third angel’s message will not be comprehended, the light which will lighten the earth with its glory will be called a false light, by those who refuse to walk in its advancing glory.” — Review and Herald, May 27, 1890.

“And in that day did the Lord GOD of hosts call to weeping, and to mourning, and to baldness, and to girding with sackcloth: And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die. And it was revealed in mine ears by the LORD of hosts, Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.” — Isaiah 22:12–14, KJV.

“We do not mark out any precise line to be followed in diet; but we do say that in countries where there are fruits, grains, and nuts in abundance, flesh meat is not the right food for God’s people.” — Testimonies for the Church, vol. 9, p. 159.

“We are not to make the use of flesh food a test of fellowship, but we should consider the influence that professed believers who use flesh foods have over others.” — Testimonies for the Church, vol. 9, p. 159.

“While we do not make the use of flesh-meat a test, while we do not want to force any one to give up its use, yet it is our duty to request that no minister of the Conference shall make light of or oppose the message of reform on this point.” — Letter 200, 1903; Testimony Studies on Diet and Foods, p. 66.

Its all about perspective Ariadne :slight_smile: . What the caution shows is that these men, albeit inspired teachers, were nevertheless capable of erring in their interpretations of truth - its the platform of truth that is solid, but passing through the dim lens of human perception, things can be distorted.

The platform of truth can also be distorted by men and women today, when they say this and that is part of the platform, when in fact it was never part of it. Such as the point about making vegetarianism a test of fellowship - something the SOP never identified as part of the platform of truth. In fact, the Testimony of Jesus shows it was not only never a part of it, but it shouldn’t become part of it.

this is much more serious than simply a matter of perspective. If you do not believe that God established His people upon a platform of pure truth through the early Advent movement, then we have a fundamental disagreement about the very foundations of our faith.

What exactly are the three angels’ messages of Revelation 14:6–12? Who gave those messages, and through whom were they proclaimed? Were they merely the fallible theological opinions of nineteenth-century men, or were they messages entrusted by God to His chosen messengers?

Ellen White answers this question. The three angels represent God’s people proclaiming the messages under the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. Those early Adventist pioneers were not simply inventing theological interpretations according to their own human understanding. God was leading them into the truths that established our movement.

Certainly, the pioneers were human and capable of mistakes. But that does not mean the truths God established through them were mistaken. You cannot use the possibility of individual human error to undermine the divine foundation of the message itself.

I believe in absolute truth. Truth is not something that changes according to our perspective, the generation in which we live, or the theological preferences of modern Adventists. When God establishes truth, it remains truth.

Regarding meat eating, I recognise that Ellen White said flesh food was not to be made a test of fellowship. But that statement cannot be used to dismiss her repeated warnings against flesh eating or the duty of God’s people to advance in health reform. Not making something a test of fellowship is not the same as declaring the practice acceptable before God in every circumstance.

My concern is that we are increasingly treating the teachings of our spiritual forefathers as though they were merely provisional opinions that we are now at liberty to revise.

We are not commissioned to invent another foundation. We are to return to the old paths, preserve the landmarks and proclaim the truths already established. The light has been given to us. Our responsibility is to understand it, live it and faithfully repeat it.

If we cannot agree that God led the pioneers into genuine, established truth, then upon what foundation does our profession of the three angels’ messages actually stand?

It sounds like you don’t have a firm foundation on truth